Comments on: Singular and parochial http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/ anythingarian bubbles and troubles from the land of the sweating hun Tue, 02 Dec 2008 08:23:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: marc http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121910 marc Thu, 31 May 2007 22:02:07 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121910 i might be a pschyco,but you are a liar!which is even worse.... facts?you gave none..... bad memory?300 years of oppression keeps me fit! i might be a pschyco,but you are a liar!which is even worse….
facts?you gave none…..
bad memory?300 years of oppression keeps me fit!

]]> By: Trevor ap Simon http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121880 Trevor ap Simon Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:16 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121880 Man, get yourself some Valium and some facts. Otherwise people will dismiss you as a psycho with a bad memory. Man, get yourself some Valium and some facts. Otherwise people will dismiss you as a psycho with a bad memory.

]]> By: Trevor ap Simon http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121529 Trevor ap Simon Sat, 26 May 2007 11:57:30 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121529 What I'd give for some simple insults! What I’d give for some simple insults!

]]> By: Ian Llorens http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121511 Ian Llorens Sat, 26 May 2007 04:39:57 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121511 Kalebeul is simply trying to score points to get invited to the next Gaelic language fair in Frankfurt. Kalebeul is simply trying to score points to get invited to the next Gaelic language fair in Frankfurt.

]]> By: Shankill AB http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121403 Shankill AB Thu, 24 May 2007 15:03:57 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121403 Which of both? intrinsic added-value ie potential know-how in language variety or Mao-style social engineering? Which of both? intrinsic added-value ie potential know-how in language variety or Mao-style social engineering?

]]> By: Trevor ap Simon http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121390 Trevor ap Simon Thu, 24 May 2007 11:31:42 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121390 @SAB: I may need to consider the idea more carefully. @SAB: I may need to consider the idea more carefully.

]]> By: Charles Butler http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121345 Charles Butler Wed, 23 May 2007 23:04:06 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121345 Señor Rano, A lo mejor, llevas razón. Hace tiempo que no intento hablar en ese idioma. CB Señor Rano,

A lo mejor, llevas razón. Hace tiempo que no intento hablar en ese idioma.

CB

]]> By: Jeannot Lefrogue http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121343 Jeannot Lefrogue Wed, 23 May 2007 22:16:10 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121343 Mais non, mon cher compatriote anglophone: 'fâcheux' is French for 'annoying', 'real pain in ze neck', tu te souviens? T'as peut-être got mixed up with 'facho', qui bien sûr est tout à fait autre chose... Mais non, mon cher compatriote anglophone: ‘fâcheux’ is French for ‘annoying’, ‘real pain in ze neck’, tu te souviens?

T’as peut-être got mixed up with ‘facho’, qui bien sûr est tout à fait autre chose…

]]> By: Charles Butler http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121336 Charles Butler Wed, 23 May 2007 18:53:42 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121336 Fâcheux? Come now, Jack. That would be the epithet of last resort. Non? Fâcheux? Come now, Jack. That would be the epithet of last resort. Non?

]]> By: Jack Grenouille http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121330 Jack Grenouille Wed, 23 May 2007 17:21:09 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121330 Peut-être tout simplement comprenait-il mal notre belle langue anglaise, ce fâcheux monsieur de l'Aéroport de Mirabel? Peut-être tout simplement comprenait-il mal notre belle langue anglaise, ce fâcheux monsieur de l’Aéroport de Mirabel?

]]> By: Charles Butler http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121329 Charles Butler Wed, 23 May 2007 16:35:42 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121329 Enforcement of language laws becomes impossible under independence, unless you want your state to be called Albania. I stopped spending time in Montreal when some uniformed shithead at Mirabel Airport refused to attend to me in English. That would be thirty years ago. But even by then law 101 had converted the city from national showcase to large provincial centre, shifting the cosmopolitan centre of the country 600 km southwest down highway 401 to a place where, ten years earlier, the King Billy parade was still front page fare. It suddenly wasn't worth the trip. Enforcement of language laws becomes impossible under independence, unless you want your state to be called Albania. I stopped spending time in Montreal when some uniformed shithead at Mirabel Airport refused to attend to me in English. That would be thirty years ago. But even by then law 101 had converted the city from national showcase to large provincial centre, shifting the cosmopolitan centre of the country 600 km southwest down highway 401 to a place where, ten years earlier, the King Billy parade was still front page fare. It suddenly wasn’t worth the trip.

]]> By: Shankill apprentice boy http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121321 Shankill apprentice boy Wed, 23 May 2007 15:16:18 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121321 Trevor, I'm afraid the above reaches well beyond the scope of linguistics, "the limits of my language indicate the limits of my world", Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico Philosophicus. Besides, you've forgotten to factor in the horrendous cost of turning 5 m Chinese into native speakers of another language. You'd have to break them up into manageable groups, resettle them - perhaps around Barcelona, relocating the Spanish speakers all the way back to the Gansu corridor to fill the sudden vacancies? - Then you'd need about 5 m trained native-speaker coaches, who'd still have to be properly payed and guaranteed old-age pensions, never mind the housing issue...good for you if that´s the professional future you're aiming at - provided you're fluent enough in Catalan, that is - but hardly feasible in conventional social-engineering terms, you will admit. Trevor, I’m afraid the above reaches well beyond the scope of linguistics, “the limits of my language indicate the limits of my world”, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico Philosophicus.

Besides, you’ve forgotten to factor in the horrendous cost of turning 5 m Chinese into native speakers of another language. You’d have to break them up into manageable groups, resettle them - perhaps around Barcelona, relocating the Spanish speakers all the way back to the Gansu corridor to fill the sudden vacancies? - Then you’d need about 5 m trained native-speaker coaches, who’d still have to be properly payed and guaranteed old-age pensions, never mind the housing issue…good for you if that´s the professional future you’re aiming at - provided you’re fluent enough in Catalan, that is - but hardly feasible in conventional social-engineering terms, you will admit.

]]> By: Trevor ap Simon http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121319 Trevor ap Simon Wed, 23 May 2007 14:34:47 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121319 I still think the most cost-effective means of saving Catalan is to pay say 5 million Chinese €3K pa (I think that's roughly twice average wages) on condition they hit certain linguistic and then literary targets. That's way more bang for your buck than you're getting in Catalonia itself and an extension of what is happening already, with Catalan mums adopting Chinese infants en masse. I don't buy Sapir-Whorf and actually couldn't care in the least if English, Spanish or Catalan were to disappear from the world tomorrow (although it would be good if they didn't all disappear at once). No one apart from Martí de Riquer can speak medieval Catalan any more and we seem to be getting by. I still think the most cost-effective means of saving Catalan is to pay say 5 million Chinese €3K pa (I think that’s roughly twice average wages) on condition they hit certain linguistic and then literary targets. That’s way more bang for your buck than you’re getting in Catalonia itself and an extension of what is happening already, with Catalan mums adopting Chinese infants en masse.

I don’t buy Sapir-Whorf and actually couldn’t care in the least if English, Spanish or Catalan were to disappear from the world tomorrow (although it would be good if they didn’t all disappear at once). No one apart from Martí de Riquer can speak medieval Catalan any more and we seem to be getting by.

]]> By: Shankill apprentice boy http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121307 Shankill apprentice boy Wed, 23 May 2007 11:59:31 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121307 You mean 'Loi 101'? Not that it's done much good, though. English remains very much the dominant language in downtown Montreal. So much for stateless nations trying to enforce domestic language legislation, it's bound to fail anyway if you're not running your own state. And I'm not so sure it'd work out even in the opposite was true, as borne out by the case of Eire. It's also questionable to what extent Russian minorities in the newfangled Baltic States will assimilate in language terms in the long run. Still, I honestly can't see the benefit humanity as a whole would derive from having French wiped out altogether from North America, or Catalan - Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian, etc.- from Europe. I think it was Hans-Georg Gadamer who pointed out that every language conveys its own kind of Weltanschauung -to put it in a nutshell- and thereby informs and enriches both its own speakers and those of other languages at the same time. The upshoot is that we need as many different angles as we can get. You mean ‘Loi 101′? Not that it’s done much good, though. English remains very much the dominant language in downtown Montreal. So much for stateless nations trying to enforce domestic language legislation, it’s bound to fail anyway if you’re not running your own state. And I’m not so sure it’d work out even in the opposite was true, as borne out by the case of Eire. It’s also questionable to what extent Russian minorities in the newfangled Baltic States will assimilate in language terms in the long run.
Still, I honestly can’t see the benefit humanity as a whole would derive from having French wiped out altogether from North America, or Catalan - Latvian, Estonian, Lithuanian, etc.- from Europe. I think it was Hans-Georg Gadamer who pointed out that every language conveys its own kind of Weltanschauung -to put it in a nutshell- and thereby informs and enriches both its own speakers and those of other languages at the same time. The upshoot is that we need as many different angles as we can get.

]]> By: Charles Butler http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121289 Charles Butler Wed, 23 May 2007 07:55:19 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2007/05/17/singular-and-parochial/#comment-121289 Apprentice boy, I didn't mean it seriously. Just said it to highlight that the language policy of some stateless nations is unworkable, or unacceptably authoritarian, in any situation of political independence. That is to say that Cataluña and Québec both are dependent on their respective countries for their language and cultural norms to function. This is a point not lost on most political operators and professionals of jurisprudence in at least the latter. Curiously, the language issue did not follow the same path in New Brunswick. There it remained a provincial matter that was resolved more or less satisfactorily in the urns via demography, as well as in the courts, this despite the far more compelling beef against the English that binds Acadians. Apprentice boy,

I didn’t mean it seriously. Just said it to highlight that the language policy of some stateless nations is unworkable, or unacceptably authoritarian, in any situation of political independence. That is to say that Cataluña and Québec both are dependent on their respective countries for their language and cultural norms to function. This is a point not lost on most political operators and professionals of jurisprudence in at least the latter.

Curiously, the language issue did not follow the same path in New Brunswick. There it remained a provincial matter that was resolved more or less satisfactorily in the urns via demography, as well as in the courts, this despite the far more compelling beef against the English that binds Acadians.

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