Comments on: Maltese http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/ anythingarian rambles from the land of the fretting nun Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:15:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Nick http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-455 Nick Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-455 Trevor, you are the one throwing around made-up statistics that belittle Catalan, so why don’t you offer a guide to your reasoning instead of leaving the burden on your handful of readers? For starters, how about a good definition of what makes someone a “native speaker”? And what about the idea of a “mother language”? What’s more, you won’t be able to find anyone raised (over the last 30 odd years) anywhere in Catalonia, Valencia or the islands who could truthfully say they are not a speaker of Catalan—no matter what language they may have spoken at home to one or both of their parents, and no matter how much anti-Catalan hatred they have been ingrained with. More than that, you should reconsider your assumption that it’s only self-described “native speakers” of Catalan who would like to see its use promoted. Trevor, you are the one throwing around made-up statistics that belittle Catalan, so why don’t you offer a guide to your reasoning instead of leaving the burden on your handful of readers? For starters, how about a good definition of what makes someone a “native speaker”? And what about the idea of a “mother language”? What’s more, you won’t be able to find anyone raised (over the last 30 odd years) anywhere in Catalonia, Valencia or the islands who could truthfully say they are not a speaker of Catalan—no matter what language they may have spoken at home to one or both of their parents, and no matter how much anti-Catalan hatred they have been ingrained with. More than that, you should reconsider your assumption that it’s only self-described “native speakers” of Catalan who would like to see its use promoted.

]]> By: Geoff http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-456 Geoff Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-456 The problem with the statistics cited by the Catalan language activists is that they are used to create the impression among foreigners that they refer to people whose primary language is Catalan, when in fact they refer to just about anyone who has come into contact with the language. I think this is what Trevor's getting at. What does native language mean? I think the Canadians come up with the most practical definition for practical application, saying that it is the first language you learn to speak. In that case there <b>are</b> probably about 4 million Catalan native speakers. What's your definition? The problem with the statistics cited by the Catalan language activists is that they are used to create the impression among foreigners that they refer to people whose primary language is Catalan, when in fact they refer to just about anyone who has come into contact with the language. I think this is what Trevor’s getting at.

What does native language mean? I think the Canadians come up with the most practical definition for practical application, saying that it is the first language you learn to speak. In that case there are probably about 4 million Catalan native speakers. What’s your definition?

]]> By: Akab http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-457 Akab Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-457 Nic, you talk about anti-Catalan hatred, but schoolkids hear get taught anti-Castilian hatred. Nic, you talk about anti-Catalan hatred, but schoolkids hear get taught anti-Castilian hatred.

]]> By: Geoff http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-458 Geoff Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-458 I've looked it up. The standard definition of mother tongue seems to be that laid down by the 1951 Conference on Mother-Tongue Education held by UNESCO in Paris: "the language which a person acquires in early years and which normally becomes his natural instrument of thought and communication." So UNESCO would say that there are roughly 4 million Catalan mother tongue speakers in the world. I’ve looked it up. The standard definition of mother tongue seems to be that laid down by the 1951 Conference on Mother-Tongue Education held by UNESCO in Paris: “the language which a person acquires in early years and which normally becomes his natural instrument of thought and communication.” So UNESCO would say that there are roughly 4 million Catalan mother tongue speakers in the world.

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-459 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-459 Most censuses on the other hand ask people whether they think they can speak a language. I haven't got time to check the census questions & data, but I assume the the higher figures are based on including everyone who answered yes on the form to a question to the effect of: "Can you order a beer in Catalan?" On that basis Spain probably contains about 10 million English speakers. Saying you can speak a language is one thing - it's not so much a question about ability as about attitudes. Being able to speak a language, and actually doing so are very different. Most censuses on the other hand ask people whether they think they can speak a language. I haven’t got time to check the census questions & data, but I assume the the higher figures are based on including everyone who answered yes on the form to a question to the effect of: “Can you order a beer in Catalan?” On that basis Spain probably contains about 10 million English speakers. Saying you can speak a language is one thing - it’s not so much a question about ability as about attitudes. Being able to speak a language, and actually doing so are very different.

]]> By: Roy http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-460 Roy Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-460 Nick, I haven't seen big protest marches in Baix LLobregat shouting 'We want more Catalan!' Nick, I haven’t seen big protest marches in Baix LLobregat shouting ‘We want more Catalan!’

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-461 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-461 [Dear trolls, coming soon: comment registration.] [Dear trolls, coming soon: comment registration.]

]]> By: David (now doing Trevor's homework) http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-462 David (now doing Trevor's homework) Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-462 As statistics goes, this should get pretty close: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CLN Population 6,472,828 mother tongue speakers (1996), plus 5,000,000 second or third language speakers in Spain (1994 La Generalitat de Catalunya). Population total all countries 6,565,000 or more. Including second language users: 10,000,000 (1999 WA). Region Northeastern Spain, around Barcelona; Catalonia, Valencia Provinces Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR Population 31,000 in Andorra (1990), 61% of the population (1990). Alternate names CATALÀ, CATALÁN, BACAVÈS Comments National language. Literacy rate in first language: 75% to 100%. Literacy rate in second language: 75% to 100%. Christian. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain. France Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR Population 100,000 in France (1996). Comments Population given above may be the ethnic group, not mother tongue speakers. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain. Italy Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR Population 20,000 in Alghero (1996). Dialects ALGHERESE. Comments Italian or Logudorese Sardinian are used as second language by many. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain. As statistics goes, this should get pretty close:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CLN

Population 6,472,828 mother tongue speakers (1996), plus 5,000,000 second or third language speakers in Spain (1994 La Generalitat de Catalunya). Population total all countries 6,565,000 or more. Including second language users: 10,000,000 (1999 WA).
Region Northeastern Spain, around Barcelona; Catalonia, Valencia Provinces

Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR
Population 31,000 in Andorra (1990), 61% of the population (1990).
Alternate names CATALÀ, CATALÁN, BACAVÈS
Comments National language. Literacy rate in first language: 75% to 100%. Literacy rate in second language: 75% to 100%. Christian. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain.

France Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR
Population 100,000 in France (1996).
Comments Population given above may be the ethnic group, not mother tongue speakers. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain.

Italy Language name CATALAN-VALENCIAN-BALEAR
Population 20,000 in Alghero (1996).
Dialects ALGHERESE.
Comments Italian or Logudorese Sardinian are used as second language by many. Bible 1478-1993. See main entry under Spain.

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-463 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-463 Thanks David. I know Ethnologue but I'm afraid that, like many statistics in Spain, the numbers provided to them by the Generalitat (or by someone else on behalf of the G) just don't seem to add up. Everyone agrees that Catalonia is split roughly 50/50, the Valencia data I quote seem seems fairly clear, and there's no way the Balearics and Roussillon can bump the number of mother tongue speakers up to any where near 6.5 million, unless they're all living in a cave under Sant Llorenç. If anyone can dig up a good detailed analysis, I'm all ears. A couple of people who comment here seem determined to believe that I'm on a crusade to suppress minority languages. In fact the opposite is true - otherwise I surely wouldn't have made an attempt to learn Catalan. However, I think that a much better case can be made if people elsewhere feel they can trust the numbers issued here. One obvious step would be to give the official stats organisations achieved a greater measure of independence from government. Unfortunately I don't think it's on the agenda. Thanks David. I know Ethnologue but I’m afraid that, like many statistics in Spain, the numbers provided to them by the Generalitat (or by someone else on behalf of the G) just don’t seem to add up. Everyone agrees that Catalonia is split roughly 50/50, the Valencia data I quote seem seems fairly clear, and there’s no way the Balearics and Roussillon can bump the number of mother tongue speakers up to any where near 6.5 million, unless they’re all living in a cave under Sant Llorenç. If anyone can dig up a good detailed analysis, I’m all ears.

A couple of people who comment here seem determined to believe that I’m on a crusade to suppress minority languages. In fact the opposite is true - otherwise I surely wouldn’t have made an attempt to learn Catalan. However, I think that a much better case can be made if people elsewhere feel they can trust the numbers issued here. One obvious step would be to give the official stats organisations achieved a greater measure of independence from government. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s on the agenda.

]]> By: Nick http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/comment-page-1/#comment-464 Nick Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/12/maltese/#comment-464 Wow, Trevor, after moving to another country you actually “made an attempt” to learn the local language? Hey, hey, give that man a medal! I take back anything I might have suggested. You are a true saint. Sant Trevor, a charitable man who kindly goes out of his way—who makes an effort—for the sake of the token languages. Wow, Trevor, after moving to another country you actually “made an attempt” to learn the local language? Hey, hey, give that man a medal! I take back anything I might have suggested. You are a true saint. Sant Trevor, a charitable man who kindly goes out of his way—who makes an effort—for the sake of the token languages.

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