Comments on: spanish/castilian http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/ anythingarian bubbles and troubles from the land of the sweating hun Tue, 02 Dec 2008 09:16:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: MM http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-376 MM Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-376 I suppose this Joan thinks they speak American in America? or USAnian in the USA and Canadian in Canada? I suppose this Joan thinks they speak American in America? or USAnian in the USA and Canadian in Canada?

]]> By: Geoff http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-377 Geoff Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-377 Or that people speak Welsh in Wales (or Catalan in Catalonia). Or that people speak Welsh in Wales (or Catalan in Catalonia).

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-378 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-378 Trevor, we have different points of view. Spain is more similar to the UK than to the Netherlands. Catalan is spoken by 10.000.000 people. Almost as much as Dutch speakers. We had our kingdom for many years. We have cultural and historical differences. And we fight to keep them as other historical regions have dont not so long ago and are still doing. According to you in the former yugoslavia they spoke yugoslavian?. I suggest you to travel a little and read some history books. MM, you completely missed my point. Trevor, we have different points of view. Spain is more similar to the UK than to the Netherlands. Catalan is spoken by 10.000.000 people. Almost as much as Dutch speakers. We had our kingdom for many years. We have cultural and historical differences. And we fight to keep them as other historical regions have dont not so long ago and are still doing. According to you in the former yugoslavia they spoke yugoslavian?. I suggest you to travel a little and read some history books.

MM, you completely missed my point.

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-379 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-379 Trevor, Forget the last part... But anyway, you're wrong. LOL Trevor,

Forget the last part… But anyway, you’re wrong.
LOL

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-380 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-380 Dude, you were on the Xish in Xland trip. Here are a couple of facts that you may find inconvenient: * The language most used in Catalonia is Spanish, not Catalan. * Saying that Catalan has 10M speakers is like classifying the population of the Netherlands (most of whom can manage a few sentences of German) as German speakers. Given almost universal literacy here, a population of roughly 6.5M, and <a href="/baldie/routes/#pic">an IES estimate of 45.% literacy in Catalan in 1996 (hit the literacy link)</a>, I reckon Catalan probably has around 3M mother tongue speakers. That's not much more than, for example, the number of Turkish mother tongue speakers in Germany. Now Turks also have great historical and cultural traditions, as well as a much more impressive record of defending them than the Catalans, but do you think they should have a right to establish their own state within Germany? Dude, you were on the Xish in Xland trip. Here are a couple of facts that you may find inconvenient:
* The language most used in Catalonia is Spanish, not Catalan.
* Saying that Catalan has 10M speakers is like classifying the population of the Netherlands (most of whom can manage a few sentences of German) as German speakers. Given almost universal literacy here, a population of roughly 6.5M, and an IES estimate of 45.% literacy in Catalan in 1996 (hit the literacy link), I reckon Catalan probably has around 3M mother tongue speakers. That’s not much more than, for example, the number of Turkish mother tongue speakers in Germany. Now Turks also have great historical and cultural traditions, as well as a much more impressive record of defending them than the Catalans, but do you think they should have a right to establish their own state within Germany?

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-381 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-381 The Generalitat's figures make sense if you include everyone who can say "Adéu" as a native speaker and they were produced not with the intention of reflecting the language situation here but in order to support a nationalist political agenda. Joan: if you can't debate without losing your temper, I'll ban you. The Generalitat’s figures make sense if you include everyone who can say “Adéu” as a native speaker and they were produced not with the intention of reflecting the language situation here but in order to support a nationalist political agenda.

Joan: if you can’t debate without losing your temper, I’ll ban you.

]]> By: Nick http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-382 Nick Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-382 Dude, are you suggesting Catalans:Spain :: Turks:Germany? If so, you wouldn't be the first to compare an emergent nation with an immigrant group: This is typical of fascist discourse, such as Hitler's and Franco's. And here is a fact that you yourself might find inconvenient: Linguists (myself included) universally recognize that literacy has nothing to do with one's linguistic competence for the purpose of determining if one is a native speaker. In fact, all of these terms are fuzzy and quite problematic, not the kind of thing worth bickering over. And your "reckoning" that "Catalan probably has around 3M mother tongue speakers" is pulled from the sky, which just highlights the important point that anyone with forty euros and lots of free time can run a fancy-looking "blog" and repeat nonsense for all to read. Dude, are you suggesting Catalans:Spain :: Turks:Germany? If so, you wouldn’t be the first to compare an emergent nation with an immigrant group: This is typical of fascist discourse, such as Hitler’s and Franco’s. And here is a fact that you yourself might find inconvenient: Linguists (myself included) universally recognize that literacy has nothing to do with one’s linguistic competence for the purpose of determining if one is a native speaker. In fact, all of these terms are fuzzy and quite problematic, not the kind of thing worth bickering over. And your “reckoning” that “Catalan probably has around 3M mother tongue speakers” is pulled from the sky, which just highlights the important point that anyone with forty euros and lots of free time can run a fancy-looking “blog” and repeat nonsense for all to read.

]]> By: Trevor http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-383 Trevor Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-383 The word "dude" is hereby banned until further notice. The word “dude” is hereby banned until further notice.

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-384 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-384 Trevor, I remind you that in the last Catalan elections. The national (Catalan) vote won the "spanish" vote. ERC + CIU combined had more votes than PSC(PSOE) + PP + IC I'm well aware that we have massive spanish inmigration from the 60's. Some adapted to Catalonia, but a lot didnt. It's a case similar to Quebec. They had their referendum to decide wether they wanted to be independent or not. I suppose you are for the autodermination of a nation with own culture, and language to decide their independence, right?. Or do you oppose the UN too?... Your comment about inmigrant turkish/Catalans was rather insulting. "T'has retratat" Trevor,

I remind you that in the last Catalan elections. The national (Catalan) vote won the “spanish” vote. ERC + CIU combined had more votes than PSC(PSOE) + PP + IC

I’m well aware that we have massive spanish inmigration from the 60’s. Some adapted to Catalonia, but a lot didnt. It’s a case similar to Quebec. They had their referendum to decide wether they wanted to be independent or not. I suppose you are for the autodermination of a nation with own culture, and language to decide their independence, right?. Or do you oppose the UN too?…

Your comment about inmigrant turkish/Catalans was rather insulting. “T’has retratat”

]]> By: Geoff http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-385 Geoff Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-385 I think that what Joan is trying to say in his peculiarly charmless way is that recent contributions like vulgar Latin should be rejected and we should all go back to speaking whatever the Celtiberians spoke, and that anything resembling Anglo-Saxon or Norman French should be forbidden in England. What Nick and Joan say about Turks is simply Eurocentric racism. For the record, though Trevor gets some things wrong, I think his estimate of 3M may be slightly on the low side but it's probably much closer to the mark than 6M, or 10M, or whatever the government has come up with. I think that what Joan is trying to say in his peculiarly charmless way is that recent contributions like vulgar Latin should be rejected and we should all go back to speaking whatever the Celtiberians spoke, and that anything resembling Anglo-Saxon or Norman French should be forbidden in England. What Nick and Joan say about Turks is simply Eurocentric racism.

For the record, though Trevor gets some things wrong, I think his estimate of 3M may be slightly on the low side but it’s probably much closer to the mark than 6M, or 10M, or whatever the government has come up with.

]]> By: Reiner http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-386 Reiner Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-386 I thought that the right to autodetermination was dead. If you hold a referendum in Catalonia and the nationalists win, will there then be referendums for administrative regions within Catalonia where Spanish is the main language to let them form independent states within Catalonia? I thought that the right to autodetermination was dead. If you hold a referendum in Catalonia and the nationalists win, will there then be referendums for administrative regions within Catalonia where Spanish is the main language to let them form independent states within Catalonia?

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-387 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-387 Geoff, With my charmless peculiar way, may I suggest you to take a reading comprehension class?. I think I express myself very clearly although my English is far from perfect. I dont see how you arrive to those crazy conclusions. As for calling me eurocentric racist (nice label BTW). Inmigrants are inmigrants... Europe was a nation of emigrants for an important period of time. You see the word turkish before the word inmigrant. and you inmediatly call me racist (It was trevor who mention particularly the turkish). LOL... who's the racist here? Geoff,

With my charmless peculiar way, may I suggest you to take a reading comprehension class?. I think I express myself very clearly although my English is far from perfect. I dont see how you arrive to those crazy conclusions.

As for calling me eurocentric racist (nice label BTW). Inmigrants are inmigrants… Europe was a nation of emigrants for an important period of time. You see the word turkish before the word inmigrant. and you inmediatly call me racist (It was trevor who mention particularly the turkish). LOL… who’s the racist here?

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-388 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-388 Sorry I meant Europe was a continent. Sorry I meant Europe was a continent.

]]> By: Joan http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-389 Joan Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-389 Sorry I meant Europe was a continent of emigrants Sorry I meant Europe was a continent of emigrants

]]> By: Nick http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-390 Nick Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://oreneta.com/kalebeul/2004/02/04/spanishcastilian/#comment-390 Geoff, you are the racist for assuming that my point depended in any way on particular qualities of Turks vis-à-vis Germans. Incidentally, the same fascist mentality behind Trevor’s comment is shared by many in the current Turkish regime—but in the case of Turkey, it is the Kurds who are being bullied into invisibility by the state’s dominant ethnic group. Geoff, you are the racist for assuming that my point depended in any way on particular qualities of Turks vis-à-vis Germans. Incidentally, the same fascist mentality behind Trevor’s comment is shared by many in the current Turkish regime—but in the case of Turkey, it is the Kurds who are being bullied into invisibility by the state’s dominant ethnic group.

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